The purpose of this conversation:

To take a look at what’s troubling in the job search and provide answers for jobseekers. The goal is to provide actionable and helpful advice to bring success to jobseekers who may need help to land their next job.

The following is a condensed version of the original discussion.

Participants:

LEZLIE GARR, Panel Moderator, Career Transition Coach & Resume Writer at ResumeLezlie.com

Resume Lezlie is a career services provider, operating since 2015, that has helped over 600 clients with resumes and job search strategies.

“I started my career in the difficult job market of 2008. From there, I spent six years doing all kinds of various things in different fields and wound up starting this business after a completely unexpected layoff. So, I have experience trying to deal with the madness, and figure out what to do when things don’t go quite as well as you’d like in your job search.”

GREG LEOS, SVP & Hiring Manager at Fiserv, Founder at CareerFocusNetwork.com

Career Focus Network is a community for career-minded folks to connect with subject matter experts and career development professionals for help on a variety of topics from job search to career advancement, and more.

“If you are going through a job loss- if you’ve been furloughed, laid off or what have you- that event is not a referendum on who you are as a person. It is absolutely not a reflection of the value that you bring to the marketplace. It is simply a life event- something that happens in business. As long as you continue to work at it, there will be a positive outcome and you’ll get to the other end of this. The one way you won’t get past it is if you throw your hands in the air and do nothing.”

LIZ PIKE, President and Recruiter at GreenRhinoRecruitment.com

GRR is a recruitment firm that focuses on payments and fintech. Our goal is to give candidates different tools and networks to help, even if we can’t place them immediately.

“The current recruitment model is seen by recruiters as very transactional. The real key is to network as much as possible. Plug into different areas, and then understand that being good at your job, being good at interviewing, and having a good resume are three different skill sets, as well as searching for- and figuring out what the right job is for you.”

What are some of the do’s and don’ts of interviewing?

GREG:

Don’ts are pretty simple:

• Don’t be late to the interview. You might be surprised at how often it happens.
• Don’t bad mouth your prior employer. It’s a poor reflection of you, so take the high road.
• Don’t be phony. Speak from the heart, be genuine and be who you are.
• Don’t lie on your resume. Try to position yourself in the best way possible, but don’t outwardly lie.
• Don’t worry. If you’re prepared, you’re gonna be fine.

The Do’s:

• Do your homework. Understand the role you’re interviewing for and research the company.
  • What does the hiring manager want to see? (Leverage your resources like Liz)
• Do ask questions at the interview- that is huge one. I want a candidate to interview me as much as I’m interviewing them. If you haven’t done your homework and you haven’t come in with questions, that says to me that you’re just looking for a job and not a career. That’s not interesting to me.
• Do share things about yourself, as long as it’s relevant. Those things aren’t always captured in the resume.
• Do ask what’s broken in the company. There is no perfect company, so ask them what’s broken and respond with how you can fix what’s broken. Ultimately that’s probably why you’re being hired.
• Do ask about the company culture, so you can make sure it’s a good fit for you.

How do you think the strongest candidates you see prepare for interviews?

LIZ:

The best candidates understand how they can address the gap between where the company wants to be and what the company needs with this role.

I tell candidates to practice answering interview questions in five sentences or less.

So, if they say, “Do you have experience with x?” You say, “Yes, I have experience with x, at y company, doing z. I got to be involved in that because of [explanation]” Then, stop to take a temp check and give them a chance to redirect if that’s not quite the information they want, or if they wanted to dig in. For example, you can ask, “Do you want more information on that? I can expand on that. Is that what you were referring to?”

Another way to prepare for an interview is to gather information from the job postings. There are normally three to five things the job can be boiled down to: “Here is the expertise we need and here is the marker we want to move.” You can usually find these things in the job description, and you want to make sure you know them before you begin the interview process. And, be realistic if you don’t have the experience.

Ask questions like, “When people have not worked out at this company or on this team, what have been some common themes?” This will give you an idea of what the culture is and if people are leaving for better growth, etc.

Lastly, practice answering questions in a succinct way before redirecting, to make sure you’re answering the same question, while asking questions about the company culture.

GREG:

I agree with Liz on the economy of word choice. When I’m interviewing someone, I want to understand who they are, I want to learn about them, and when they drone on and on about a topic, that’s tough.

That’s why I recommend reaching out to a job search coach that can help you through writing your resume and the interview process for maximum impact.

Attendee Question: “Any specific tips for job seekers over 40?”

LIZ:

Lean into the stuff where, if you’re not as experienced in one area, or if you’re older, or if you’re a woman joining an industry that’s mostly men, whatever it is- address that, like, “This is how I will bring diversity to the team.”

Attendee Question: “What is the best way to handle Applicant Tracking Systems (ATS)”

LEZLIE:

Study the types of jobs that you are planning to apply to, that you’re targeting, and get a really strong understanding of what the keywords are that are being asked for from those types of jobs. And, make sure those skills and keywords show up in your resume, not just at the top, but also all the way through.

Give me one word to characterize the hiring process right now.

GREG:

Broken.

This is why I launched Career Focus Network because I want to help as many people as I can to navigate through a broken hiring process. It’s broken at a variety of levels and I’ve heard horror stories on both sides- candidates being ghosted by hiring managers, and on the other side, candidates walking in the door unprepared. There are also not-so-fabulous recruiters that are too transactional, and lots of folks who claim to make great resumes but don’t engage their clients efficiently to put a good resume out there.

The system is broken, but don’t let that deter you. If you develop the right experts and have a team behind you, you can navigate through some of this mine field that exist right now. If at all possible, hire a good career coach to shorten the time cycle to finding a job quite a bit. Make sure you find somebody who has the heart of a teacher.

To do it solo and just go online and respond to job postings, I think, is a one in a million shot that it will create a good outcome for you.

LIZ:

I agree that the hiring process is broken. There isn’t any consistency or process in place, and really no rules. The downside is that there are no rules, but the upside is that there are no rules.

One thing I would say in regard to connecting with recruiters and getting to the right person is, be really succinct. Also, targeting what you’re looking for, knowing why you are a fit, and finding if you have anyone in common, is the best way to go.

If you’re applying online, it’s a good idea to see if you can find the hiring manager and connect with them, or the recruiter. Send them a hyperlink to the job description and say, “I’m interested in x role. I have x experience. [If you know someone in common] It looks like we both know so-and-so,” or “So-and-so referred me. I am attaching my resume and I’d love to hear back from you.” And, then just keep going and keep a project tracker for these jobs.

The nice thing that I say about ‘no rules’ means that you can utilize your network and most hiring managers aren’t going to get upset that you reached out to them directly about a job. However, if you send the same message over and over to a bunch of recruiters, or if that message is so long, they are probably just going to delete that email. Also, if they have to do any research to look up what job you’re applying for, or who you are- if you don’t include your name in the email…these sound like basic things, but they are important.

LEZLIE:

To your point, Greg, just because the system is broken doesn’t mean we can throw our hands in the air and say, “I don’t want to deal with it anymore.” You have to play the game. Whatever game is being played, you have to figure out how to play it.

To your point, Liz, you’re right that it’s a good thing that there are no rules, which means you can be creative in the way that you play the game. If you’re struggling with something particular in your job search, you can find creative ways of working around and still showing your value to employers even if it’s not readily apparent right away.

How do you feel is the best way to follow up after an interview?

LIZ:

I tell candidates to send thank you notes individually via email and make them short and succinct but touch on something personal. And, don’t make them all the same, or just change a few words. Assume that people are sharing those emails.

GREG:

My preference is, any sort of follow up at all. Follow up is a lost art in our society now, and it works both ways. I’ve seen hiring managers, companies, and recruiters that ghost candidates, but all you can control is yourself and your own behavior. So, I strongly encourage you to follow up. Follow up with recruiters and anyone that you talk to. It takes two minutes to send an email.

Follow up between 12-24 hours after an interview, don’t wait a week. In fact, I would do it immediately after the interview. As soon as you’re done, set aside five minutes, send an email: “[This] is what I really liked. [This] is what I really heard. [This] is how I think I can make a difference. Thank you for your time.” Done.

That will separate you from a good number of candidates, if you do that quick follow up.

LEZLIE:

One way that writing a personal thank you letter might come in handy is if you are applying to a smaller company, or a company that really values traditions or personal touch. Then, hand-writing a small card and dropping it at reception may be beneficial.

Attendee Question: “Is there a tactful response to, ‘What is the minimum salary you will accept?’”

LIZ:

Yes, just be honest. I work with a lot of candidates and maybe about one percent, maybe less than one percent, don’t want to tell me their salary because they think that changes their negotiating position. What they don’t understand is that I’ve already ballparked their salary, and the range of that position is not going to change based on what they tell me.

If someone asks, you can be flexible and maybe accept something, say, in the 50’s, base salary, if there’s back end bonus or opportunity to move up. [If you’re willing to accept that] Tell them. You could also say, “That would be pretty tight. I would need something in writing saying that I would be able to move up.”

I find that being honest with people tends to make them more honest with you, so just tell them where you’re at.

“I have six months saved up, so honestly I won’t take anything less than $75,000.”

Or,

“I will take anything right now, but I do want a longer career path, so is there an opportunity to be promoted?”

See how they respond to you, and that’s really your best bet. Talk with the hiring manager like you’re already employed to see how they’re going to communicate with you.

GREG:

I want to preface my response by saying that I understand very much that a lot of folks, they just need to get a job, the bills are piling up and you need to be employed. I get that.

For my answer, let’s put practicality on the shelf.

If someone on an interview is going to say, “What’s the minimum you’re willing to take?” I would question about whether I ever want to go work there because someone is already trying to diminish your value.

Now, if they ask you, “Here’s our range. Does that range work for you?” I whole-heartedly agree with Liz- be authentic. Don’t be phony. Be forthcoming about what you’re willing to do.

Again, I understand that sometimes practicality takes priority, but if you don’t have to factor that in, it might best to just continue to look.

Attendee Follow Up Question: “Shouldn’t the employer be able to give a range when asked?”

GREG:

I think if there’s any skirting around the issue, that is a major red flag. If they are already starting to negotiate salary before they’re even interested in you, that says a lot about the company culture.

There should be a range and you can leave it at that.

As a hiring manager, I have no concerns if a candidate is not forthcoming in what they hope to get from a salary standpoint.

What I like to say up front is, “This is the salary range for this role. Does that work or not?”

On the flip side, don’t say it works for you and then when you get an offer within that range, say, “It’s not enough,” because then you’ve wasted everyone’s time.

By the same token, yes, if a company is not straightforward with responsibility and income range, I think it’s a huge red flag.

LIZ:

I agree it’s a red flag. I often have companies come to me and say, “We know we want to hire this type of person. What will it take?” I give them my rough range, but sometimes that range is so wide that I say, “Here are the different levels of where you’re at.”

Sometimes you’ll have a situation where the HR department wants to protect their company, so they feel the less information they give out, the better. Then, the legal system wants to protect employees, so they feel that they shouldn’t have to give out their salary. So now, you have both sides not talking to each other and we didn’t do anything.

So, I agree that that’s not the way to go. Most jobs should have a pay range. If they’re saying, “We don’t have a pay range,” or, “We can’t tell you the pay range,” you can say, “I understand if you are hamstrung by HR. Here’s the range I’ve been earning within the last 5 years and I’m open within that. But it makes me nervous- is there a reason you’re not giving out the pay range?” Because it could be a red flag, but it could be because they don’t know what that role will take yet. They might have a budget for $150,000 but it might be better to get two $75K people, and their trying to see what the best role is for the market.

That’s why I hate to say that it’s always a red flag because sometimes it comes from the legal, or HR side, and hiring managers can’t do anything. But when I try to send emails out and have job information, I always send that information to the hiring manager first and I say, “Here’s the range,” so that we’re all on the same page.

Your best bet is to just be honest with your range and what you’re looking for, and why. If you’re worried about something they are saying, say that! “Hey, what’s the thought process behind this? Have you guys been burned in the past? It makes me nervous to join a company if this just black and white and we can’t have a conversation about it and see how they respond.

When you’re looking at a candidate in the hiring process, how important is it that they have an updated resume that highlights their work responsibilities, skills, and accomplishments?

 GREG:

For me, if they don’t, it’s a disqualifier. Much like the follow up, it’s a reflection of who they are. It’s an insight into what type of work they’re going to do and if they don’t have a resume, they haven’t invested any time in the resume, it often times won’t even get to my desk. 

It won’t get past recruiters, an HR gatekeeper, or anyone else to even get to me. So, it is ‘table stakes’ stuff- it can’t missed. You have to invest time in it. I would encourage everyone to invest time getting a job search coach or doing homework before an interview.

LIZ:

I agree.  It is tough, with me, to accurately assess people if they don’t have an updated resume. Because, (1) I’m going off of their LinkedIn and what their saying, (2) How do I represent that to a company, and (3) Is the person accurately representing who they are if they can’t put together a resume, and do they have those professional skills?

I think there is a lot of value of working with someone like Lezlie.

My answer with resumes is, everyone has one and everyone has an opinion on them. But I know there are patterns and I think what I’m doing is trying to glean info on the resume and see if that resume is presented at the level the person is at.

I see so many times where there are strong candidates who don’t understand why they’re not getting interviews for other jobs. It’s because their resume makes them look very junior.

There are so many opinions, and you don’t just want to go on Google and look at resume samples- that’s the worst thing you can do.

GREG:

Invest the time, right? I know it’s difficult because when folks are unemployed, they often don’t have the money to invest in things, but that’s why I think it’s important to be prepared for events like being unemployed. You have to invest in someone like Lezlie and different resources so you can position yourself and shorten that unemployment cycle.

LEZLIE:

To your point, I think it’s important to think about this an investment. I think a lot of us are willing to invest in things we see value in and see importance in. For history, the resume has been either something you should be doing yourself, or something that isn’t that complex or difficult, but within the last 10-20 years, technology has made the resume process a lot more complex. It’s important to note that you can be the best person at your job, but if you don’t know the right way to communicate that in a resume and an interview, then it’s not going to get you where you need to be.

As Greg mentioned, if the resume isn’t of a certain quality, then it probably won’t even reach his desk. But I also want to point out to those jobseekers who rely heavily on networking and personal connection, that’s wonderful and it’s certainly helpful in your career, but almost always, even in that process if you didn’t need a resume in the beginning, at some point before you get a handshake and a sign on a contract, somebody is going to ask you for your resume.

Attendee Question: Addressing Ageism

LIZ:

The bigger question here is, what level are you at, and how much enthusiasm, energy, and technical savvy, and communication skills do you bring to that?

I’ve placed C-level people who in their 60s at companies who’ve told me that they wanted someone in their 40s who is really energetic.

If you make sure you are interviewing well and you’re energetic, and you’re resume shows the level that you’re at, and you are very tech savvy, then your experience is more of, “Here’s the diversity and expertise that I bring to the company.” Not, “You’re going to have to train me on how to make a PDF.”

What’s the biggest thing you look for in a candidate when you interview them?

GREG:

The single biggest thing I look for is not necessary talent or culture fit, although those things are very important, it’s grit. If you’re not familiar with Angela Duckworth’s book called, “Grit,” I encourage you to go get it. It’s where passion and perseverance meet- if you add those two together, you get grit. Grit comes from failure.

Think of times you’ve slipped and fallen and how you lifted yourself up; how you grew from that experience. And, how that learning can be taken to role you’re interviewing for. If you demonstrate that to a hiring manager, if you can say, “Look, I messed up here. This didn’t work out as planned. But I lifted myself up and here’s what I’ve learned as a result, and here’s how I would apply to this job we’re talking about.”

That’s the secret sauce that will put you at the top of the list.

ADDITIONAL RESOURCES:

CareerFocusNetwork.com > Sign up to receive the free eBook, Demystifying the World of a Recruiter, which includes interviews with recruiters to help jobseekers get an insight into the hiring process.

ResumeLezlie.com/resume-plan > Turn your resume into an interview getting machine with this free 5-Step Resume Action Plan. This plan will get you motivated, informed, and confident!

GreenRhinoRecruitment.com/job-seekers > We have opportunities for job seekers in the payments and fintech space. Our recruitment process is comprehensive and confidential. Our goal is to match our candidates with the right opportunity and to help ensure long-term success.